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Let's discuss about balance

Napisany przez scaftz, 25-12-2019, 14:20


Let's discuss about balance

Offline Tekk

#11
(31-12-2019, 03:20)MatthewChow Wrote: The favoritism didn't come from me wanting the car to be OP, the favoritism comes from my certainty that any changes to that handling coming 1-2 days before the update launching would give a bad result, specially when seeing that the first thing that kept being brought up was either "make the car understeer" or " delete this handling and just copy the handling from Bravura with some alterations here and there". That is simply not the way I work and I worked on this car for way too long to see it get a random kick to the side like that. This kind of change is to be made way sooner than that in development and I made sure there were plenty of opportunities to do it. I made every alteration and experiment I was asked to from my testers, and many were made. If you think the van is good now, you should have seen then. I tried to get you in right at the first test, but you had me blocked. At the time it did have class B performance for real, if not better.

The things you just mentioned aren't the things I originally suggested to you. After you said that the handling I made can not be used due to script working in some weird way, and showed me the new/current one, I suggested you to try and make another one from scratch. Because this one wasn't properly balanced. Gonna mention that all of this was back in November, not 1 or 2 days before the update. So I guess there was plenty of time. And I didn't have you blocked too, you should know that. On July 4th I just removed the majority of people (related to NFS:SA) from my discord and quit the server. That was made so people would stop asking me about what's going on and what was the reason behind cancelling the offroad event. You could contact me later at any moment, if you wanted to. But I doubt any of us were interested in that. More to that, I thought that I did all I could with the handling. Because I asked you I should change something about it like 4 to 5 times during the tests, but you said that it was cool and approved it. That was back in June.

(31-12-2019, 03:20)MatthewChow Wrote: And you know damn well I'm oblivious to the competitive aspect of the game as I personally don't give a crap. I don't play races. My one and only criteria from the start was simply "to make it fun to go around", and because I'm this oblivious to the competitive side and already knew from warning that you could skip performance parts with Moonbeam, I played it safe and made Moonbeam's score higher than every other class E car, equivalent to having an extra part always on, so you could not fit as many parts in Moonbeam as you could with other cars within score limits, but even then, I went to race Moonbeam against other cars after the update coming and I didn't feel like I had any advantage. The other cars kept beating me like it always happens, so... I don't know, I haven't seen anything game breaking yet. I went to check the Race Stats and I didn't see any Moonbeam stealing a top time yet, so... I'm fine for now.
I'm not knowledgeable about the topic of this thread and I don't even understand it clearly, so, I cannot add good input to it. I wouldn't be capable to even if I wanted. My job is not to make handlings, that's why I asked for your help at the time, but, you can keep doing that job, since you're by far the most knowledgeable on it I know and with the strongest most sure opinions. I can make you our handling maker and the next car we add to the game, which comes sooner than you may think, will have the handling made from start to finish by you. You are by far the most capable of doing this job and I need someone to do it for me. We'll talk in February about it. I will teach you how the handling system works.

Well, I guess you're right and your words is some sort of an explanation of why a modeler shouldn't be doing the balance related things. I mean, I do get what you're trying to say, but this car is not a "freeroam mode-only" car. None of the changes that you've made did anything significant in the final release. It's still a car that can whoop a maxed Primo by just using a "300" score build. Your example with not being able to win the race against other players isn't a valid argument too, because as you stated yourself, you don't do these very often. I would assume that it's just a lack of practice. Our skill with Orby matches quite good and during the test races I managed to get a solid time difference, and we did like 10 or 15 attempts with like only 2-3 being me losing to him cause my car spun out or I hit some random prop. I highly doubt that I can be considered a good driver on this server, so I'm sure that players like Anod, Berkayy, Aroszparo would show even better results. Speaking of the handling maker role, I appreciate that and it's surprising for me, after what was said and done during the last 7 months. But honestly, I'm not really interested in such big promotions, not anymore at least. I didn't plan to stay around and came back only to start working on the christmas/new year event. It was one of the ideas that I wanted to finish cause was asked by my teammates, I guess I did. For that role, you should probably ask Scaftz and give him a chance. I often see him giving decent suggestions and it gets ignored. Really, he's the person who even created this thread. Anyways, I'm just sorta tired of everything, "fighting the windmills" and stuff like that, and it's time for me to move further. It's been 2 great years and this community was one of the best I know. I don't regret anything and enjoyed playing here. So yeah, I apologize if I said something harsh in this post or in general. Wish you all to have a nice 2020. See you.
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Offline MatthewChow

#12
I will keep it short because this is a bit off topic, but for clarification, I only knew that you had me blocked exactly because I tried to message you about joining the test and Discord gave me that "This message was not sent because this user has you blocked" popup, otherwise I'd never have known. You made the original handling for Moonbeam, of course I wanted to include you from the start, that is to be expected and I will take you in regardless of any history, stop doubting that. I explained the best I could why NFS:SA's system didn't work with the normal handling lines at the time and you know it applies equations over loose values. You can't convert a normal line into that, you know that. It's a dynamic system. Stop acting like you don't know this. I don't know the math that goes in the code to be able to translate a vanilla line into NFS:SA, I had to go by feeling alone.
Scaftz was one of the guys that was helping me in the tests, and we did do a lot of experimenting together. He was one of the most active.
You told me that you wanted to help this project and be useful many times before. Now that I'm giving you the chance to leave one of the biggest impacts in the game that could potentially lead way to fix many of the broken parts of it you're running away again? Why do you always give up shit midway? You don't need to go, give it at last a try. You couldn't be more useful by doing this. You may be fighting windmills, but at least have the balls to leave a proper dent on this one while you got the chance to.
Have a nice 2020.
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Offline Tekk

#13
(01-01-2020, 01:38)MatthewChow Wrote: I explained the best I could why NFS:SA's system didn't work with the normal handling lines at the time and you know it applies equations over loose values. You can't convert a normal line into that, you know that. It's a dynamic system. Stop acting like you don't know this. I don't know the math that goes in the code to be able to translate a vanilla line into NFS:SA, I had to go by feeling alone.

And what makes you think I knew all this, again? Seriously. No one explained that to me before, in details. All I was told by the devs is that the script is completely different from hedit with the way it works. You included. We only had this talk once with you, during December 1-2, when we were testing the parts on your private server. Later I asked Quindo if it's hard to understand if you're not experienced with the code and he said "yes". That's all I know about this system.

(01-01-2020, 01:38)MatthewChow Wrote: You told me that you wanted to help this project and be useful many times before. Now that I'm giving you the chance to leave one of the biggest impacts in the game that could potentially lead way to fix many of the broken parts of it you're running away again? Why do you always give up shit midway? You don't need to go, give it at last a try. You couldn't be more useful by doing this. You may be fighting windmills, but at least have the balls to leave a proper dent on this one while you got the chance to.

But I believe I did at least something to help the place as well, and wasn't just talking "many times"? I mean yeah, I'm not not a scripter, nor a modeller. I won't be able to magically learn all this stuff in a few days. Saying things like "always give up shit midway" is big words, but you forgot to mention when and what did I give up on. Because everything that I wanted to work on was pretty much finished from my side in the end. The decision for me to quit was made months ago, and I specified the reason why I had to return in October in my previous post. So talking about "balls".. n-word, please. After the confrontation we had before, when I was trying to prove my point, and was kindly asked to shut the fuck up with the "we know better" talk. Really? I mean, my point stands still. It's just "Fighting the windmills" is a waste of time. The server requires much bigger changes than just one or two handling lines, and even if I could do something like that, it's very doubtful I'd be able to do it quickly.
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Offline scaftz

#14
As much as i wanted cars to be balanced in game, no i am not up for such task as someone in charge of the handlings. I have questionable availability and i hate responsibility. I am going to move out somewhat any soon for personal reasons and not so sure when i will have good chunks of free time. IRL stuffs aside, I also stopped playing since weeks ago (came online to enjoy an event but that's it) because i find it hard to enjoy the game right now. It's not related to the balance much, i am kinda sick of this game as a whole for now. Hardly ever get any motivation to play, let alone doing extra stuffs. I am in as someone to give feedback and such, but as one to issue out final results, nope. Terrifying enough for me to imagine people on the server blame me for the shit work i would done later.
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Offline MatthewChow

#15
Okay, now that's your memory problems kicking in...
Tekk, lets not do this again, okay? I think while you don't learn to be accepting of other people with different ideas and deal with unexpected situations, you'll only just keep getting in conflicts throughout your life.
The Uranus situation was bad in your view, sure, but you had the support of the whole dev team trying to fit your event in in the best way we could. Instead of working with us and trying to find a solution that could benefit us both you just ran and blamed everyone else around you, as if your friends were all out to get you all of a sudden. You killed your own event, not anyone else. Shit happens everyday, you just gotta deal with it and make it the best you can. Sure I take responsibility for once again being oblivious a game update could come in the way of an event, it could have been avoided if I knew your reasons beforehand, but you blew that way out of its true proportions.

(01-01-2020, 13:23)scaftz Wrote: I am in as someone to give feedback and such, but as one to issue out final results, nope. Terrifying enough for me to imagine people on the server blame me for the shit work i would done later.

Now that's exactly the core of the problem! No matter how bad or how good your content is, you'll always have a half of the server who stays silent and enjoys your update, and another half who'll say you just ruined the whole game and will stop at nothing to crucify you for it. Queue Remo and Moonbeam despite him rocking around an Moonbeamer M3 GTR build. You cannot please everyone, and listening to the feedback is at times more confusing than enlightening because each person says a different, usually opposite, thing. There are times it helps, but there are others it's a clusterfuck. You really need a big stomach for this job.
I did the best I could with what I had.
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Offline Tekk

#16
(01-01-2020, 16:39)MatthewChow Wrote: Okay, now that's your memory problems kicking in...
Tekk, lets not do this again, okay?

It's already started and it wasn't me who started it. If I'd knew how the script works, I'd already try and make my attempt on creating a proper handling line. Say what you want about my memory problem, but it has nothing to do with you accusing me in "giving up on things midway" without actually providing any examples. I'm still waiting for some. By the way, you already accused me in things I never did before. At least once, which I'm aware of. The "fury talk" case, with the "fury" part actually never been there. All I did was asking you to not waste my time, because I was annoyed by waiting for you at 3AM for over a hour, but you took it as offense. Are you that touchy or something? Later you made up a story and got away with that crap, since I didn't have a chance to reply (I wasn't in the admin channel by that moment anymore and quit the NFS:SA discord). Now you're saying that my memory is to blame and that I knew everything about the script, without having the access to it up to this day. Amazing.

(01-01-2020, 16:39)MatthewChow Wrote: The Uranus situation was bad in your view, sure, but you had the support of the whole dev team trying to fit your event in in the best way we could. Instead of working with us and trying to find a solution that could benefit us both you just ran and blamed everyone else around you, as if your friends were all out to get you all of a sudden. You killed your own event, not anyone else. Shit happens everyday, you just gotta deal with it and make it the best you can. Sure I take responsibility for once again being oblivious a game update could come in the way of an event, it could have been avoided if I knew your reasons beforehand, but you blew that way out of its true proportions.

Of course, here comes the event talk. You just couldn't hold on without it. You say that I had the support of the whole team trying to "fit my event in"? Right.. Well first of all, I didn't ask anyone for that in first place. I didn't even know the Uranus was about to get released. It was sitting on the test server for at least 2 to 3 weeks by that moment and no one was giving a shit about it. Last testing was done at the end of May. I moved the event date only once (from June 29th to July 6th) because Orbacle couldn't join me due to his final exams. I also announced that publicly, even mentioned it on this forum, without spoiling the event theme. No one minded it, not a single developer. So yeah, everyone was aware of our plans by that moment and no one had to "fit my event in", as if it was something that suddenly popped out of nowhere. Honestly, if that saturday was so freaking important to you or anyone else on the team, you guys could just tell me. I would probably move the event to the next week. But nope, I was told the update is gonna happen 3 days before the event starts, when the event theme was already spoiled and the post with the rules and stuff was already created.

Speaking of the actual support from the dev team - the only people who actually helped me with creating the thing were Quindo and Orbacle. I explained to you in details why doing the event and releasing the Uranus in the same day would not work. I did it twice. You ignored all that and just said "it's not up to me and it's gonna happen anyways". I had to move the thing again (for an unknown period of time, wasn't sure about the date by that moment anymore), because I didn't want the update to throw off people's attention from the event. I explained to you in details why the event wouldn't be the priority for people. Multiple people even confirmed that to me later. Scoob mentioned that on discord. So yeah, probably it's you who should learn to accept other people's ideas or at least listen to what others have to say. Also, if you wouldn't be making up bullshit and blaming me for "directly damaging your business" and by that provoking me even further, none of this would have even happened. Just keep telling yourself that I killed my own event because I really wanted that. Whatever, dude. I was already through this, and I didn't even want to mention it here, but you just had to do it, cause it's the way you are. By the way, I even asked Quindo to release the maps twice, first I did back in November and the second time was fairly recently. He confirmed he's gonna do it.

If any mod wants to close this thread since it's heavily derailed, it's the right time. Matt will be able to post here anyways since he has the rights, and I just can't stop replying when I see such bullshit.
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Offline MatthewChow

#17
Okay, fine. I'm sorry it didn't go well for any of us. Lets let this be over. Do as you wish. But I ask that you don't spread bulshit in return like in the first post, because you were twisting it. That's literally all I ask. The end.
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