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No car classes

Napisany przez scaftz, 25-02-2019, 11:42


No car classes

Offline scaftz

#1
As we know already, cars balance on the server is a total whack. Balancing is doubtfully would make a big success, as Bartek already said: "Nerfing OP cars will make the 2nd best car OP and the cycle goes on". What's the point of classifying cars into classes while they perform so much different from each other in the same class? That's where this idea came from.

Currently we have very minimal car to choose with if i want to play competitively. We are forced to drive Deluxo if we wanted to score C class toptimes because every other car just don't stand a chance to be as good as Deluxo. I like to drive Uranus more, it's far from what you would call as a bad car but you can't do much with it. Sure, every other car may have scored couple of toptimes too, but you will need like 10 times more effort on your setup and driving while I can easily score a -1 second toptime by just 2 days of starting to drive and tune Deluxo competitively. 

With car classes removed, we will rely on car scores to determine which car's faster than which. We don't even need cars handlings to be tweaked (only to certain broken cars) to apply this, we can just use current handlings and give them scores accordingly based on how well they perform. Example, Infernus would be having 380~ score on stock and 500~ when maxed while Turismo would have somehing lower such as 370~ on stock and 490~ maxed score considering it's Inferior to Infernus.

With car scores not being tied to match to cars within it's class, this will hopefully open an opportunity for previously non URL meta cars to be competitive on URLs since they would have different stock scores. Making better car variety on URLs.

How about toptimes? Well then, EVERY single car will have it's own toptimes board. Due to toptimes will be more rarely set, we can change weekly toptimes into monthly toptimes. Giving better competition opportunity and preventing people using rare cars getting free toptime money easier. Rewards and maximum toptime yielding rewards will need a slight change. This will certainly make the previously non best car on it's class to be more driveable and seen driven more often since they have fair toptime to beat with rather than trying to beat the impossible. Making better car variety on regular races too.

On casual player's POV, no car classes will barely give them any impact. They can still determine the performance of their car compared to their opponents by the car score and chose who they will want to race with.

This won't completely eliminate car imbalance. Certain cars may be better than the other car despite having same score. But at least we can easily balance it by raising the said car scores.

Still need to think a way of how unlocking cars works, probably old method where you unlock certain car after hitting certain player RP would work.

Give me your opinions about this.
I lived bitch
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Offline Dr.Wpierdol

#2
Almost all NFS games had car classes, so it will make server less NFS like
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Offline Nick33BC

#3
I am all for changing car scores for individual cars and changing class scores to make scores match better. But removing classes won't fix balance at all.

By changes the scores of the cars in each class you can already balance it without removing classes. So why would you have to remove the classes? It would be the same thing either way balance wise. But if you remove classes it will just make things weirder for unlocking cars and make it a pain in the ass for all time top time setters.
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Offline scaftz

#4
(25-02-2019, 13:27)Nick33BC Wrote: why would you have to remove the classes?
Because cars within the same class don't even match in term of performance making it useless to classify them into classes. And no, removing classes will make some changes because cars don't have to be having same performance with the other. Without them being tied into classes, cars can have different stock and maxed scores. Worse cars will have lower scores, which mean they will race against lower ones as well. Agreed with how it will make unlocking cars weird. I don't quite get what you meant with the toptimers.

(25-02-2019, 13:18)Dr.Wpierdol Wrote: Almost all NFS games had car classes, so it will make server less NFS like
Underground and Underground 2 doesn't have car classes. More to add, those games are what this server mostly based on.
I lived bitch
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Offline Nick33BC

#5
(25-02-2019, 13:50).scaftz Wrote:
(25-02-2019, 13:27)Nick33BC Wrote: why would you have to remove the classes?
Because cars within the same class don't even match in term of performance making it useless to classify them into classes. And no, it will make some changes balance wise because cars don't have to be having same performance with the other. Without them being tied into classes, cars can have different stock and maxed scores. Worse cars will have lower scores, which mean they will race against lower ones as well. Agreed with how it will make unlocking cars weird
First of i don't agree about the cars having vastly different preformance. When it comes to top time setting, About half the cars of each class normally come close to it's class time. While the next class is normally a couple seconds ahead. The main ones that are slower are cars with suspension problems and cars with strange quirks such as the Elegy. And the Elegy is op at some things.

Changing all the scores to be individual cars would be a massive gamble. If we just changed the scores of every car as if it's, it's own class there would be new excessively broken metas popping up for url and races. Doing it properly would take massive amounts of time and testing by people who play everyday and there would still be problems in the end.

They have set the scores up to be what they thought would be balanced for classes. And it is unbalanced. Making them not tied to a class doesn't mean that some cars won't still be op at urls and races. We have dealt with the unbalance for years and we still don't know what the exact score changes would be to make it fixed. Small changes that slowly fix the important things is what needs to happen. If they just changed everything for every car in one go, we would just be 3 feet deeper in the quicksand.

A lot of cars are balanced for there class btw. It's just that some cars have something they're better at. Which can not be scored correctly. The Manana is great on flat ground but not really that good on streets. So if you raise the score it will become trash, and if you lower the score it will become excessively op at lsap and s-x. The Primo is best at 250 urls but it's slower at most circuit races than the Intruder, So if you raise the score it will no longer be best at urls making it kinda useless and if you lower the score it will be way too op at 250. Intruder is best for top times on most circuit and sprint tracks, But it's not as good for 250 or flat tracks. And you should get the picture. Each car is best at it's own thing. If you change scores to suit the car for one thing you will make it broken for another thing. So figuring out the mess that would be changing that much of scores would be a nightmare.

Another example:
The Elegy is op at drag races and speed traps and a couple of circuit maps. But it sucks at most else. So if you lower the score of the car it will be completely broken against anything around it's score for the things it's already op at for it's class.

The only way to make every car score make sense for every type of race it's in, Is to make it so all cars drive the same way. But that would be boring. Each car being good at a different thing is part of the charm of the cars. But because every car is different they will be better at somethings than others, There is no way to make the scores completely make sense.

But changing stuff like making the Jester have better default suspension so it can rival the SGT and Sultan. Leaving the Elegy to be op at straight line races because that's what you should want it for in races,
And then slightly changing the cars in class by 1-6 score will change how they preform in urls. Because adding 5 score to the SGT will mean it can't fit a extra upgrade to go into url, Which will make it alot slower compared to how it is. Raise the whole of B class from 440 to 450 and suddenly D and C class have a chance at 300 and 350. Raise A class to 520 and now B class is good at 400. Small things can make big changes. You do this type of stuff slowly for every class and suddenly everything is a lot more balanced without breaking everything.
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Offline Akatoyaa

#6
Well u can leave classes, change stock car score and add new top times as different top time. there can be even 3 different type of top times: Class based, car based and all cars, and u dont need to change top time reward system, it will be just easier to get 50 top times

But in general good idea, balancing by changing score will affect races/urls but not top times. And if u add 2nd type of top times = per car. more players will use "slower" cars
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Offline scaftz

#7
(25-02-2019, 15:53)Nick33BC Wrote: First of i don't agree about the cars having vastly different preformance. When it comes to top time setting, About half the cars of each class normally come close to it's class time. While the next class is normally a couple seconds ahead. The main ones that are slower are cars with suspension problems and cars with strange quirks such as the Elegy. And the Elegy is op at some things.
And those slower ones are the one that feel like they don't belong to certain classes. Sure Elegy is great in term of acceleration but guess what, it's overally bad car still. People would probably get faster lap times driving Deluxo which is one class below Elegy's. While Elegy have no chance to race against other B class cars. So the car classing is useless in my opinion.

(25-02-2019, 15:53)Nick33BC Wrote: Making them not tied to a class doesn't mean that some cars won't still be op at urls and races.
Never said it will. But by making cars not tied to classes, we can freely assign cars to have quite major score differences without making it looks odd.

Not gonna put more argument to the other rest of your paragraphs because it has nothing to do with removing the car classes. I am agreeing with them also. I already have some of those in mind when i mentioned about car score based balancing on the other thread. But then again, it will only solve URL and regular race balance, not class toptimes.

(25-02-2019, 16:32)Akatoyaa Wrote: Well u can leave classes, change stock car score and add new top times as different top time. there can be even 3 different type of top times: Class based, car based and all cars, and u dont need to change top time reward system, it will be just easier to get 50 top times
The class based ones will be unecessary. Toptime running best car on it's class will score you two toptimes in a single run. I don't want that. Get rid the class based ones and use car based instead. Getting 50 weekly is considerably easy already, I don't want to make it even easier.
I lived bitch
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Offline Nick33BC

#8
(25-02-2019, 16:37)scaftz Wrote:
(25-02-2019, 15:53)Nick33BC Wrote: First of i don't agree about the cars having vastly different preformance. When it comes to top time setting, About half the cars of each class normally come close to it's class time. While the next class is normally a couple seconds ahead. The main ones that are slower are cars with suspension problems and cars with strange quirks such as the Elegy. And the Elegy is op at some things.
And those slower ones are the one that feel like they don't belong to certain classes. Sure Elegy is great in term of acceleration but guess what, it's overally bad car still. People would probably get faster lap times driving Deluxo which is one class below Elegy's. While Elegy have no chance to race against other B class cars. So the car classing is useless in my opinion.
As i said you can fix the slower ones with small tweaks, Because most of the slow ones are cars with strange problems such as suspension. Which would fix that entire problem and the classes would make sense.

Elegy does have a chance, Don't say it doesn't. It beats ALL other B class cars in Drag and even rare circuit tracks. If you made the Elegy's score low enough to make sense for normal races, It would be completely op for Drag and Speedtrap gamemodes. No car from any class with the same score would be able to come close to beating the Elegy at Speedtrap and Drag. And so it will just make more imbalance.

The Elegy is balanced to B class. It just is setup for different gamemodes.

(25-02-2019, 16:37)scaftz Wrote: People would probably get faster lap times driving Deluxo which is one class below Elegy's.
Oh yeah, Side note. The Deluxo is the one car i actually think should get a nerf. It is wildly faster than anything else from C class. I am even fine with all my C class Deluxo times getting removed. The Deluxo feels like cheating anyway. And even though the Deluxo is fast enough to pretty much be B class, It can't even come close to the top times that the Elegy can set on maps that are good for the Elegy.
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Offline scaftz

#9
That's one thing i quite dislike from Elegy. Rather than making it superbly excellent at only one thing, make it be more flexible to do more things. Reduce it's acceleration slightly, but give it a slight grip bonus as well, making the car more all rounder.

Back to car classes. As long as devs will try to make the cars within classes balanced, i don't mind keeping car classes as it is. That's the issue i am seeing with cars being classed. I came with the idea because i am afraid they won't or can't. It's not pleasing seeing how only few cars usable if you want to play competitively.
I lived bitch
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Offline Nick33BC

#10
(25-02-2019, 18:11)scaftz Wrote: That's one thing i quite dislike from Elegy. Rather than making it superbly excellent at only one thing, make it be more flexible to do more things. Reduce it's acceleration slightly, but give it a slight grip bonus as well, making the car more all rounder.

Back to car classes. As long as devs will try to make the cars within classes balanced, i don't mind keeping car classes as it is. That's the issue i am seeing with cars being classed. I came with the idea because i am afraid they won't or can't. It's not pleasing seeing how only few cars usable if you want to play competitively.
Even if there are no classes, There will still be a best first car meta, A best low score meta car, A max score meta car, A 250 score meta car, a 300 score meta car, Ect.

There will always be a meta, A best thing at something. There is no way to have it be balanced for everything at once with lots of choice. As long as the meta is fun and skill based then it should be a fine competitive experience. The more you try to make everything competitive for everything the more unbalanced it gets. And all that matters to the casuals is that there car is at least usable.

With some careful planning we can both add more to the meta, Make it so every car is usable and no car is a bad choice. While if we removed classes we would still have the same balance issues, But just in new places. And top time setting will be way too hard for most people because most people can't/won't buy every car to set all the times. I know that I certainly can't be bothered to max every car.
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